I am often asked – especially by young people interested in a radio career – this question:
“So why did you get into radio?”
And like many in the business, my pathway was circuitous and off-the-beaten path. “I came in through the Research Door.”
Here’s the story: I was getting my Master’s degree at Michigan State, and was heavily involved in production and the on-air product. The only required course in the entire program was TC 831 – Research Methods. At the time, I thought this was such a waste of time. I was spending most of my waking hours teaching audio production and doing work of my own. And while I wasn’t exactly sure I had the chops or the talent to become a major market personality, I was going to give it a shot.
And then I walked into this research class among the other grad students seeking a Master’s. Our professor, Dr. John Abel, laid out the facts. He explained the many practical applications for research in the rapidly growing field of telecommunication. And when he found out I was one of the few who actually was going to pursue a career at the station level, he pulled me aside and explained the realities of how research meshes with programming.
Dr. Abel’s theory was that strong research that asks the right questions makes us better programmers. By better understanding what consumers enjoy listening to (or watching) and how they perceive the various media outlets vying for our attention, programming and content creation skills are sharpened.
He encouraged me to go after an NAB Research Grant – and yes, I got it – and the result was what turned out to be a controversial research study that we ended up co-publishing in the Journal of Broadcasting and Electronic Media in 1975. It was the first – and only – time I’ve ever been published in an academic journal.
And its success led me to Marion, Iowa, where I became a Research Analyst for Frank N. Magid’s radio division, along with a great team of pros that included Jon Coleman, Bill Moyes, Alan Burns, Bruce Fohr, Doug Jones, Bill Oxley, and others. From there I went to ABC Radio to design and conduct research for their 7 Owned & Operated Stations. And the rest, you know.
From those days at MSU, I learned how research can help programmers and content directors fine-tune their tastes and intuitions. Many young people – and I was one of them once – believe they’ve got impeccable taste and know what the masses like. A few perceptual studies and music tests later, and you come back down to earth. Learning what people really like can be a sobering experience, but a necessary one if you seek a career making stuff for others.
When I think about the state of the podcasting industry, it occurs that many who have made their way to the top may be missing an import component of the craft: research.
Like so many other media, podcasting finds itself going through tumultuous times. And yet, revenue growth for the medium is on the rise. The Internet Advertising Bureau placed their bets on nearly $2.3 billion in revenue when the books are finally closed on 2023.
Yet, most acknowledge the much-feared “podcast bubble” has already struck the industry, leading to staff terminations and budget cuts. There is much consternation in the space, amid
concerns podcasting shops and agencies may go under.
The WNYC/New York juggernaut is the latest to experience serious hiccups. Last week, New York Public Radio – the station’s parent – laid off 6% of its staff.
According to Current, most of the 20 people adversely affected worked at WNYC Studios, the podcast arm of WNYC. And in the process, two podcasts ,”More Perfect” and “La Brega,” were axed as a result of these staffing cutbacks.
New York Public Radio’s CEO, LaFontaine Oliver, commented about the ominous environment the organization is facing:
“The ground has shifted beneath our feet, and even the largest commercial players in the podcasting space are readjusting to the changing financial realities of this platform.”
And yet, some podcast producers say they’re experiencing impressive growth.
A recent Digiday story notes iHeart’s Q2 podcasting revenue shot up nearly 13%, while Acast reported a 22% jump. Spotify continues to be bullish on podcasting, citing strong ad revenue, thanks in no small part to its podcast ad network, SPAN.
And generative Ai is showing promise. As Digiday’s Sara Guaglione points out, Artificial Intelligence is making its presence known in both “content production” and cost savings. 
Other digital tools are at work, trying to help podcast publishers achieve greater efficiency. Acast now uses its proprietary Collections+ platform, utilizing AI to access more data for listener targeting.
But beyond these nascent AI applications, do podcasters really have a sense for what’s working and what’s not about their content? As we’ve discussed here in past posts, podcasting “hits” have been few and far between. Do hosts and producers have dependable data that tells them how audiences perceive and use their shows?
Part of podcasting’s peril may be due to its long-running habit of crudely measuring success. As most radio broadcasters will readily admit, using audience ratings as an insights tool is simplistic and even deceptive. Yet, most podcasters don’t have much more than Nielsen-level data – at best.
This is why most serious radio broadcasters have relied on audience research over the decades. Just as ratings are a terrible way to measure perceptions, attitudes, and emotions, so are podcasting metrics. You don’t glean a whole lot of useful findings about podcasts and the people who listen to them from download data. And yet, most podcasters are research-averse. They’d just as soon trust their instincts rather than risk their intuitions to the test. And it’s a mystery as to why that’s the case.
A number of years ago, we were hired to help an organization with a podcast revolving around a college sports franchise. Even pre-Zoom, we were able to easily recruit focus groups from their audience base with a combination of database users and announcements placed in the podcast itself. The insights were numerous, and even more to the point, regular listeners were excited about being able to express their opinions and be heard. The podcast’s producers? Not so excited.
Fast-forward a couple years to Podcast Movement in Orlando. For our “Broadcasters Meet Podcasters” sessions, I had the idea of conducting a live focus group (please don’t try this at
home!) on stage. I put Seth on the case to find a podcast with a following substantial enough to have a solid base of listeners in the Central Florida region. The bet was that in exchange for getting great feedback on their podcast, the host or producers would help us recruit 8-10 respondents from their listeners.
It became apparent early the podcasters we approached with the concept were concerned about the concept of having their production evaluated before a Podcast Movement crowd. Understanding the fear of looking bad at a conference devoted to podcasts, I ensured worried podcasters that a sample from the database would end up being overwhelmingly positive. And I promised not to let the discussion “get negative.” It didn’t matter. We struck out with several podcasters who wanted no part of a research experiment.
Thankfully, Joe Saul-Sehy, host of “Stacking Benjamins,” an entertaining podcast about investment and finance, was game. He even guest wrote a blog post for us – “5 Things We Hope To Learn
About Our Podcast From A Focus Group,” that captured the spirit of the exercise.
Among other things, he was curious about what listeners REALLY liked about his podcast, did they recommend it to others, and what other podcasts did they listen to besides “Stacking Benjamins.” In short, the same types of questions a PD would have about his or her radio station and/or morning show.
On “game day” in Orlando, I conducted the group at Podcast Movement, enough respondents showed up to make it interesting, and they engaged in a wide ranging 30 minute discussion about “Stacking Benjamins.”
Overall, the group was loaded with insights and even a surprise or two. No one uttered a negative word about the podcast or its hosts. In fact, they were eager to discuss ways it could be improved. Joe was so excited about the group, he made a surprise appearance near the end of the session, thrilling the respondents who were delighted to meet them. And of course, he wanted to toss out a question or two himself.
He told me afterwards how valuable the experience was to his thinking and future planning for “Stacking Benjamins.” The fact is, most podcasters – except for those at the top of the pyramid who produce events – have never seen or met their listeners.
Sadly, Joe Saul-Sehy is the exception. And I believe the truth is that the average medium market radio programmer knows more about her audience and how they view her station than most podcasters know about their shows – even the basics like who’s listening and why.
And because so few podcast producers are conducting or commissioning audience research, a prescient podcaster could easily be leaps and bounds ahead of the pack. I recall when a handful of groundbreaking PDs who had music research before anyone else in the market had a distinct edge over their competition. Knowledge is power, especially when no one else knows what you know.
Fortunately, there are lots of radio people using their skills in the podcast space who know better. Research has played a major role in their radio successes because they were usually wise enough to apply it properly and not let it overwhelm or sanitize their content. The same could and should happen in their podcasting endeavors, assuming they can convince the podcasting powers-that-be to take a chance and learn what consumers are really thinking.
When you think of it, every other content creator is subject to the whims and weirdness of focus groups and audience research. Whether you make movies, documentaries, or music, or content for radio, TV, print, chances are real-life consumers are being asked their opinions about it.
Except in podcasting.
I am not suggesting audience research would revolutionize the art of producing, marketing, and monetizing a podcast. It’s not going to jumpstart podcasting out of its current malaise. But it
couldn’t hurt. Maybe there’s a reason that even in today’s fast-moving, content-rich environment, there are more hit radio stations than there are hit podcasts. Think about that.
Given the competitive media environment for entertainment and information and the crosscurrents that are everywhere, the only thing truly scalable about today’s podcasting environment is the layoffs. It seems like we are in the middle of a transformative period for podcasting, a moment in time where a serious shakeout is underway. For podcasts that have had scant impact to begin with, no amount of research will likely make much of a difference. But for those that have achieved a modicum of success, well-conducted audience research might be a difference-maker.
Whether you’re a showrunner for a hit TV show, a radio station PD, or a producer of podcasts, you can learn from the audience. After all, they’re the ones listening to your show, reacting to your ads, and hopefully telling their friends and co-workers about you.
It never hurts to ask.
Jacobs Media has consistently walked the walk in the digital space, providing insights and guidance through its well-read national Techsurveys.
In 2008, jacapps was launched - a mobile apps company that has designed and built more than 1,300 apps for both the Apple and Android platforms. In 2013, the DASH Conference was created - a mashup of radio and automotive, designed to foster better understanding of the "connected car" and its impact.
Along with providing the creative and intellectual direction for the company, Fred consults many of Jacobs Media's commercial and public radio clients, in addition to media brands looking to thrive in the rapidly changing tech environment.
Fred was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame in 2018.
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And then there is the reality of researching the soul out of an industry. While research is important, set clear and specific brand expectations with as little confirmation bias as possible. Without that, everything crumbles. I encourage all young podcasters to own their intellectual property and don’t always trust the dangling carrot. An industry obsessed with noncompetes is just as liable to have it’s bubble popped.
I’ve been there, Brandon. Research can be a double-edged sword. A great foundation makes a great programmer much smarter. But research can go over the top, and paralyze an organization. It’s a fine line. Thanks for the comment.
I thought I heard somewhere that McDonalds has a big research unit to identify good locations for its restaurants.
Burger King just opens up next door or across the street.
Meant as a tongue in cheek comment to your reply above.
Distractions, distractions, distractions. Are we broadcasters? Podcasters? Blog-casters?
Once was a time when radio was just that. Radio. The other items could be used to enhance the main product and sell more advertising. Remember Cherry Coke? It was another way to sell Coke.
Research all you want, but remember that the easiest way to get the largest audience is still broadcasting (in 2023). While podcast revenues have gone up, do we know the original figure ?
Radio companies really might want to think what they should be doing to maximize revenue and profit. The main product should be available on all platforms but as someone in politics once said, “You got to dance with them what brung ya.”
No argument there, Dave. The post was actually directed (at least in MY mind) to podcasters who are not necessarily broadcasters. They, too, could benefit from audience insights, i.e. feedback.
There’s a LOT here in this comment, Dave, about priorities. In fact, I smell another blog post coming. Thanks for chiming in on this one.