Two posts that ran here last week must have touched a nerve – or in some cases, entire nervous systems.
The first, “Television Is Imploding: Why Radio Won’t Anytime Soon,” made the point that in-car listening would continue to sustain (prop up?) broadcast radio because of the ubiquity and habit of the listening location. Many of you took exception to this in comments that followed the post, along with my socials.
And the next day, “Is FM Classic Rock Radio Better Than Spotify?” highlighted observations from a thirtysomething L.A.-based journalist, Nate Rogers, who enjoyed listening to the attention-getting, curated KLOS more than he did his more passive algorithm-created playlists on Spotify. That post continued the dialogue, some of it laced with cynicism and anger, often from former radio station employees understandably embittered about the current state of the industry.
At the heart of the “debate” is the question of whether broadcast radio is a shadow of its former self. I have no research to back this up, but I would venture to say that based on writing this blog for 19 years and conducting Techsurveys for the same amount of time among hundreds of thousands of core radio listeners, it is safe to assert that radio isn’t what it used to be.
The real question volleyed in these comments and on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter/X is whether it’s now too late for radio to win back lapsed listeners, much less appeal to young people who never developed the radio habit in the first place. In essence, many of you felt our young West Coast journalist was an anomaly, not a symbol of radio’s potential to make a comeback.
A number of comments read like these two:
But there were also thoughtful comments about the elements that actually work on the radio – and why they do. No one articulated it better than Paul Marshall, a stellar personality (and former PD) entertaining his audience about the music on Hubbard Phoenix Classic Rocker, KSLX. As you’ll see, it generated a thread, mostly from very passionate personalities who have watched radio’s mission get further away from serving audiences and gravitate to chasing diaries and meters. (By the way, the personalities making the case for curation and connection are all highly rated in their markets today and over the years.)
There’s a theme here – curation – and it continues to creep back into these conversations. And let’s get real – there are some listeners who want nothing to do with DJs and talk. They’re listening for music – period. For them, a knowledgeable personality means nothing if she talks for more than a few seconds. Broadcast radio used to excel with those listener types, but in a world with streaming, commercial-free platforms, most stations cannot match up.
But for those who appreciate a compelling, entertaining, tuned-in voice who serves as a friend and hometown companion, radio – done right (to echo Mr. Marshall) – has no match.
I believe that’s part of what Nate Rogers, our young L.A. journalist, was talking about in his New York Times story. But the other part is how good curation can feel when even music fans tire of the chore of creating their own playlists and/or the disappointment of listening to music systematically put together by an algorithm trying to predict our tastes.
And then there’s Rick Rubin, one of the all-time great music producers of our time – and perhaps all time. In a recent interview for the podcast Huberman Lab, Rubin reflected for three hours on a variety of topics, including his preferred way to enjoy listening to music.
In this segment, transcribed by Happy Scribe, Rubin compares streaming services to someone else doing the music selection:
“I’ll tell you a quick story, which was when the music streaming revolution happened. I was really excited. The idea that all of music is in my pocket now, and I can listen to any song, any album from any point in my life where I get to hear about something and it’s all accessible right now in this moment. I was thinking at that time, I’m just going to DJ. All I’m going to do is DJ and I’m going to listen to anything I can think of that I’m excited about.
“I haven’t heard the Talking Heads in a while. Let’s listen to Talking Heads. Just how great that freedom is to have everything at your fingertips. What I came to learn very quickly is I don’t want to DJ all day. I love that I have the ability to DJ all day. I love that when there’s something I want to hear, I can find it. But I don’t want to have to do the work of picking everything I’m going to listen to. I like being programmed to.
“I like the discovery of somebody else playing something that I wasn’t expecting and getting to enjoy that. So now I do more listening to either somebody’s curated playlists or online radio stations, and I do less picking music to listen to. But I never would have known that before because I always thought, Well, if I could listen to anything I want, I want to listen to what I want to listen to. I didn’t know that I didn’t want to have to pick it. ”
And I know what you’re thinking – Rubin doesn’t mention FM radio when he thinks about someone other than him curating music. That’s because it is obvious to most people that radio talent on the majority of commercial stations are executing a tight playlist coming right off a computer screen.
Hosts like Jim Ladd, Iris Harrison, Pierre Robert, and Bob Stroud, are/were exceptions in a world where music selection is often done by a programmer who – these days – may not even live in the market. It has gotten increasingly easier to complete these tasks with ease, thanks to the convenience of virtual tools and now, AI engines.
But are these merely tasks or things on a to-do list? Or are they crafts, requiring skills that don’t come in a box. I once had a programmer tell me he approached music scheduling as having to produce 24 works of art everyday. At least he cared enough to approach it that way.
Is music scheduling today more efficient, less expensive, and closer to someone’s idea of perfection? Of course, it is. But does it produce optimal results in an overcrowded environment where music content and playlists are everywhere, and all programmers share the same tool kit. And yet somehow, many consumers struggle to find something they haven’t heard in a while or a new song from a new artist they’ve never heard of. That is, radio that moves and inspires them in some way.
Is the term “curated” a key-word that could position FM radio stations (that live up to it) uniquely from DSPs. Or is it “curated by humans” that’s the difference-maker.
Curation isn’t cheap. For years (decades?) efficiency and cost-savings have trumped entertainment. And like the commercial load problem rationalized by the age-old “Well, everyone else is doing it!”, has the sub-300 song playlist boundary finally run its course, driving away even regular users of radio?
You might respond that very tight-listed stations continue to lead most markets in the ratings, and I would point to declining PUMM levels (the modern way to look at PUR, or persons using radio). Shares don’t much matter when overall usage levels – particularly in the largest markets – continue to decline.
And is it all that dangerous to suggest easing up those playlist limitations and giving on-air talent the ability to make a substitution or an addition – or to call an audible because it’s raining cats and dogs outside and “Here Comes the Sun” is scheduled to play next?
This “radical” ideology requires many things – live talent without over excessive voicetracking and the ability to implement “planned spontaneity” at stations where it’s been eons since anybody thought this way.
“Muscle memory” becomes a problem if no one actually remembers how to plan and present certain actions.
Warning: Old radio guy thought coming…
Many of the ways radio stations were programmed and talent was coached backed in the ’70s and ’80s could be effective yet again in today’s environment, dominated by Spotify, podcasting, and other on-demand audio platforms.
Warning: Another old radio guy thought coming…
I continue to believe audiences would respond to a more curated / less predictable presentation. Of course, that requires calculated risk – artfully placing and then playing handfuls of songs that might not test up to optimal levels of acceptance but would surprise and even delight regular listeners who haven’t heard these songs in years.
Today, most radio broadcasters do nothing to mask the fact their talent has nothing to do with music selection; that it emanates from a squeaky-tight, highly controlled playlist, likely managed and massaged by a programmer – or these days, it’s the same music running on nearly identical stations in market after market, with little thought given to local or regional music tastes, preferences, or anomalies. Yes, there is economy of scale – but at what price?
Audiences are rejecting the mundane, the pedestrian, the stale. (Are you reading this public radio programmers?) When everyday is the same – the same songs, the same benchmark bits, the same contests – there’s no particular reason to listen today – or tomorrow. Radio used to believe in “cume urgency” – giving people a reason to tune the station in today. These days, there are fewer reasons to listen on most stations.
We cannot keep laying that creative burden on our morning shows, and expect it to work. The rest of the day (or down to “prime” now because most broadcasters have all but given up on nights) has to make a contribution to being timely, current, interesting, compelling, and (gulp!) fun.
But can this be done or are these merely the ravings of a consultant waving a “The end of the world is near” sign (and who also has a shared responsibility for the boredom, the sameness, and the malaise)? Is there muscle memory left in these call letters, brands, air studios, and talent that could help “Make Radio Great Again?”
It’s too easy to blame it all on consolidation, born of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. In truth, it was the way too many broadcasters believed buying up more properties in the same markets gave them license to beat the entertainment value out of radio for economic purposes – the misguided hubris that led them to ask the wrong-headed question, “After all, where else are they going to go?”
Now, we know. They’re scattered all over the audio landscape, looking for something, anything that’s a little different, entertaining, spontaneous, and a break from the tried and true of politics, the news cycle, social media doom-scrolling, and the newest scandals on Reality TV.
It may have gotten so bad that some people might actually give FM radio a chance again – if there was something there that was captivating, cool, charming, or catchy (sorry about the alliterations).
I’ll leave you with one more thought – eye contact – something virtually none of radio’s digital competitors can summon up because they’re not local.
We see the need for community connection continue to grow since COVID in all three of our Techsurveys. Meeting talent at the radio station and even interacting with them can be a bona fide positive. And once again, it separates broadcast radio from its many competitors for attention, listening, and revenue.
Today, I’m headed to a unique destination for Paul and me. We’re on our way to Orlando for “Children’s Hospitals Week,” a massive get-together organized by the fine Children’s Miracle Network Hospitals organization, the folks that work with broadcasters to put on Radiothons, and other fundraising activities for local children’s hospitals in hundreds of metros across the country.
We’ve worked with CMN Hospitals for several years now, and we’ve learned what actually make Radiothons more successful. When they’re real, emotional, present, and interacting with their audiences, everyone comes out a hero – including sponsors and clients who reap the benefits of doing something that doesn’t sound like their predictable Presidents’ Day sales events.
I’ve heard Radiothons referred to as “PPM killers” because the “radio rulebook” gets tossed for two or three days. Talent actually talks, stations connect with listeners, clients better their brands, and audiences aren’t subjected to the same songs from the Tired 200.
Some of the most successful Radiothons aren’t buried in the holidays, and are multi-day, all hands initiatives that truly are community focused. Take a bow, WDVE, KTAR, and KJR-FM – and others that realize that strategic rule-breaking makes their stations better.
Radio still very much matters to millions of listeners – the older ones with a deep sense of nostalgia for the medium as well as younger generations tiring of perfect playlists, algorithms, and predictive AI technology. But we’ve got to stop spending, staffing, and programming like we’re still the only game in town.
That muscle memory’s got to be back there somewhere.
Special thanks to Mickey Jacobs for the inspiration. – FJ
Jacobs Media has consistently walked the walk in the digital space, providing insights and guidance through its well-read national Techsurveys.
In 2008, jacapps was launched - a mobile apps company that has designed and built more than 1,300 apps for both the Apple and Android platforms. In 2013, the DASH Conference was created - a mashup of radio and automotive, designed to foster better understanding of the "connected car" and its impact.
Along with providing the creative and intellectual direction for the company, Fred consults many of Jacobs Media's commercial and public radio clients, in addition to media brands looking to thrive in the rapidly changing tech environment.
Fred was inducted into the Radio Hall of Fame in 2018.
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With the corporations’ massive debt now, they can’t afford to curate their playlist.
They have one PD to a format with all 400 songs loaded into his Selector after creating a music log, he then shoots it across the network to all the Nexgen machines in all the markets of that format.
It’s why the CHR station in Tallahassee sounds like the CHR station in Nashville and sounds like the CHR station in Indianapolis and sounds like the CHR station in Tulsa.
That’s the current definition of ‘curation’ because they can’t afford a PD in every city adjusting the playlist to what their audience wants to hear.
Carter, you describe the “state of the radio union” in many situations, but not all. There are still many stations that are well-staffed locally with on-site PDs and multiple live jocks, capable of delivering more than just the Tired 200.
I completely agree with what’s been said here.
There are simply some people out there who simply want to spend their time running “the radio business” down and predicting its demise is right around the corner on social media. And mostly, it’s people out of the business and who haven’t seen the inside of a station for 20 or 30 years.
I can almost name them by name. I have argued with them so many times.
Mention any successful promotion a radio station has done, whether a station raises a couple hundred grand in one day for charity, or gives away thousands of “eclipse glasses” in one afternoon. Regardless, the success could NOT have POSSIBLY come from “people listening to the radio”. At least according to some. It was “television” coverage. It was “people talking on social media” (forgetting, of course that radio stations, and businesses in general) promote themselves on social media.
But that doesn’t mean people didn’t “hear it on the radio”. Or saw it on the local news.
More to the point, though – every “jock in the day” has whined, complained, griped and moaned about no longer being allowed to “pick the records”. And even I can point to stations where jocks were tasked to listen to the music and come up with the songs that play.
And it worked.
But, it’s hard to do that today when you are also running 3, 4 or more radio stations at the same time. And let’s face it. Where we see one major broadcaster about to exit bankruptcy and 4 or 5 more predicted to see their debt dragging them INTO bankruptcy sometime this year, if the predictions hold, none of this is going to change.
To get “jock curated music” back on the air, it will take the vision and foresight of a company or broadcaster in a major market to do it. And unfortunately, the types of companies owning the stations in major markets have become so myopic and stuck to their spreadsheets that real ground level creativity, while not impossible, I would say is highly improbable.
I wish I could count the number of times I have been told and have said, “You’re right. And for the right reasons. But…”
And it’s what follows the word “But” that is the problem.
Spot on. Radio brings companionship and human curation. Spotify is the world’s largest hard-drive of music storage. That’s about it.
https://youtube.com/shorts/f5QwxPuNn7k?si=kFnfBSajO5SKz17w
Live and if not local, at least regional talent with a sense of moment and place is what’s missing in so much radio these days. I’ve long advocated for some jock involvement in selecting some of the music. I had the idea long ago that there should be a few “pick ’em” slots during the hour where talent could pick from 4 or 5 songs that would fit that slot, not unlike the old card-based system where you could select the next song from among the first few songs in that section of the card file. The idea does two things. It keeps the jock engaged, and it allows the station to tailor programming to that particular time and place. Even close to real time VT would benefit from the practice. The automation would use the first song on the option list if there was no interaction by the jock.
In short, small measures could make big differences. At this point, all radio has to lose is more listeners. The industry needs to do something to stop the bleeding.
I get the “jocks should be able to pick their music” argument a LOT – or at least I used to when I first took over the controls as GM at my college radio station (where I’m also a professor.)
Picking your own songs isn’t necessarily fun for the audience, even though it may be fun for you as a jock. The audience may not have the same deep attachment to a song a deejay played in your high school gym at your prom. You may not have gone to the same high school as your listeners! This is why we play songs everyone recognizes.
There’s a reason why I do a classic hits format for our analog station – because much as I love my programming colleagues, I know if they get an aircheck from a student talking over a bluegrass record and they program a rock station, they won’t listen beyond the first few notes, no matter how clever the air talent is. Likewise, if they hear a talkover on a song that nobody played anywhere except the aforementioned student at a frat party, they’ll tune out ASAP. So we play the hits in rock, dance, country-crossover, pop – to give the kids a chance to show prospective employers they can handle being commercial air personalities.
My college colleagues now get it – lots of people in town are listening to our station, and we now have it piped in buildings around campus with our staff (of all ages) telling me how much they enjoy it. Because they recognize the songs. (And hey, when one of our college hoop stars wanders down the hall singing along with Gladys Knight, I figure we’re doing what we’re supposed to be doing.)
No argument that a 200 song playlist is tight, and if it’s classics, it gets crispy. Here’s how I counter that: I have three libraries. Every four months, I sift out the old one and sift in the next one. The hit artists are in all three libraries, just with different hits – so it never sounds like it’s Fleetwood Mac Day or Michael Jackson Day or David Bowie Day. And every year we add a year on one end and subtract one on the other. Yes, I teach my kids that.
More importantly, I teach them to research the community – what are they talking about? What’s happening in town? What’s happening on campus? I also teach them to research the music – who’s playing in town? What are they doing lately? The whole idea is forward motion, maintaining relevance in today’s world. When air personalities can make that connection with the audience, it keeps radio relevant.
But it won’t make the “play only what I want to listen to or I’m not listening to you anymore” listener happy.
What was great about using sales charts in the ’60s was that it told you which music people were willing to pay for. Then dropping the best sellers into the Drake formula of fast, slow, fast, oldie really worked with the jock acting as your companion. FM was an alternative to that.
You’re right, Bob – purchasing a record (or an 8-track, cassette, CD) was a coommitment. That’s why Abrams used a similar system to identify other tracks on the album, besides the single. When you buy the entire album, chances are good you’re going to listeen to the whole thing – scores of times.
When I was at WRIF, I was informed that Rick Rubin wanted to fly in, have lunch, and then just talk a bit about rock radio. A cool, casual, and constructive afternoon…
What a fascinating guy.
Preach, Preach, and when you get tired of saying it, preach some more.
I always go back to what Radio did when this happened last time. Stations aired theater of the mind shows until TV came along and brought video into the shows. Then, Radio started playing music, but now people can get exactly the music they want everywhere with far fewer (or no) commercials. Time for Radio to find its next thing.
As a young person championing radio, the denial has to stop. 1. This is chosen, it’s obvious that Tsl isn’t a priority and car or office aqh is all that matters. 2. Part of the job is living in denial. Funny how you see people who talk about how Iheart is the best to work for, then they get laid off, guess who the first people who talk trash are. Never mind let’s overlook the fact the personalities are discussing their corporate problems on social media with listener followers, which just makes them sound untrustworthy, like opportunists, which, let’s be honest, most people are. It’s fine, but let’s not deny that.
3. A myopic, wizard of Oz type arrogance where the man insists no one look behind the curtain. While we’re on the subject, do you think Emerald City loved the man because of who he was, because he was a grand figure, or because they wanted something from him? Congrats, your audience is prize pigs, chasing balloons, what an accomplishment.
4. Spotify can’t do that. Yeah but the average person in a raffle and charity with better local social media presence does it more now
5. There’s good radio out there. Sure there is, but if there was enough of it, you wouldn’t be writing these articles every day.
At that point, you get what you pay for, which to be fair, makes public radio and satellite radio a lot more enticing. the real value proposition isn’t in the music, or even the personalities, it is the fact that I don’t feel like they’re trying to lie to me, or con me in to liking something that they don’t even care about.
A great locally program station in a small town where people don’t travel is fine, a good market is something worth celebrating. However, this is basically equivalent to the argument of I don’t understand why radio doesn’t have this obscure format, then the pithy personality piping up and saying we cater to the average. Well, guess what the average radio sounds like in the United States? That’s perception, that’s reality. Also, name a station that is doing really well, that is not heritage? Some people are optimists, some pessimist, and I’m a realist, I wouldn’t touch a commercial radio job with a 10 foot pole right now.
What a great write up, and I would like to further comment on it.
Your reflections on the enduring value of curated content, the unique role of radio personalities, and the evolving listener habits in the digital age resonated deeply with me. As we stand at this crossroads, I believe it’s crucial to explore how Internet radio can not only complement the traditional radio landscape but also pioneer new paths for engagement, discovery, and community connection.
Internet radio, with its inherent flexibility and global reach, presents an unparalleled opportunity for the radio industry to reinvent itself. By leveraging the digital platform, radio can transcend traditional geographic and logistical limitations, offering a more personalized and interactive listening experience. This digital transformation allows for experimentation with diverse and niche genres, innovative programming formats, and more nuanced listener interactions, thereby addressing some of the critical challenges facing broadcast radio today.
One of the most compelling aspects you highlighted is the value of curation and the personal touch of radio personalities. Internet radio amplifies this strength by enabling a broader range of voices and curatorial expertise to flourish. Unlike algorithm-driven platforms, internet radio can offer a curated experience that feels more human, personal, and surprising. This approach not only enriches the listener’s experience but also fosters a deeper sense of loyalty and community among audiences.
Moreover, the agility of Internet radio allows it to take chances on new artists, unconventional themes, and bold programming choices that might be deemed too risky for traditional FM stations. By doing so, internet radio can become a beacon for innovation and creativity in the audio entertainment space, attracting listeners eager for fresh and authentic content.
Your discussion on the potential for radio to forge stronger community connections, especially in the post-COVID era, also struck a chord. Internet radio, with its interactive features such as live chats, listener requests, and social media integration, can enhance this sense of belonging and engagement. The digital platform can serve as a hub for community events, discussions, and initiatives, bridging the gap between radio personalities and their audiences in ways that were previously unimaginable.
In essence, internet radio does not merely serve as an extension of the traditional radio model; it represents a bold reimagining of what radio can be in the digital age. By embracing the possibilities offered by the internet, radio can redefine itself as a dynamic, inclusive, and innovative medium that resonates with both long-time listeners and new generations alike.
I appreciate the depth and nuance of your analysis, which has sparked a renewed sense of optimism and excitement about the future of radio. I am convinced that, with a willingness to experiment and adapt, internet radio can indeed become part of the answer to the challenges and opportunities you’ve so eloquently laid out.
Furthermore, it’s crucial to acknowledge the wealth of talent currently standing at the sidelines, eager to step back into the spotlight. The shift towards digital and the consolidation within traditional broadcast radio have left many highly skilled, experienced DJs and radio personalities without a platform. These individuals, with their deep musical knowledge, unique voices, and ability to connect with listeners on a personal level, are an untapped resource for Internet radio. By integrating these seasoned professionals into the digital landscape, we can elevate the quality and diversity of content available to listeners worldwide. Their expertise not only enriches the listening experience but also injects a sense of nostalgia and authenticity that many audiences crave in today’s algorithm-driven audio world.
On a personal note, as someone deeply invested in the future of radio, I spearhead an internet radio network that is at the forefront of marrying major market production quality with the innovative possibilities of the digital realm. Our network is dedicated to harnessing the vast potential of Internet radio, creating a space where creativity, curation, and community thrive. Listen to Retro Radio, Classic Rock Planet, The Country Blend, and the others on the Thasis website (www.thasis.com).
We are not just replicating the traditional radio model online; we are reimagining what radio used to be, making it more accessible, interactive, and responsive to the needs and interests of today’s listeners. By doing so, we aim to set a new standard for audio entertainment, one that respects the legacy of broadcast radio while boldly stepping into the future.
Thank you for your thoughtful exploration of these issues, and for sparking a much-needed conversation about the evolution of radio in our rapidly changing world.